TRANSCRIPT OF TELEPHONE CONVERSATION BETWEEN JUDITH REITMAN AND DANA GRUETT September 2002 Note: Dana Gruett became manager of the shelter Laura Walters founded in Arkansas after Walters came to Chapel. Walters was president until she left Arkansas MS. GRUETT:Hello, this is Dana. Can I help you? MS. REITMAN:Dana, hi. It's Jude Reitman from North Carolina. MS. GRUETT:Uh-huh (affirmative). MS. REITMAN:Hi. MS. GRUETT:Hi. MS. REITMAN:Were you able to send anything? MS. GRUETT:I tried. I don't know if you got it or not, though, because my computer--I actually went over to my boyfriend's mom's house and tried to use hers, but she went to Bingo, and we didn't know her password. So I went ahead and tried to send it from mine, and it sent it back to me like three times. And I-- MS. REITMAN:Did you have the right e-mail? MS. GRUETT:Huh? MS. REITMAN:Did you have the right e-mail? MS. GRUETT:Yeah. It's not the--it's my e-mail-- MS. REITMAN:Oh. MS. GRUETT:--is what it is. And it kept sending it back to me because--it's in Outlook Express, is what it is. And-- MS. REITMAN:Oh, no. MS. GRUETT:--the whole computer is just messed up. So I don't know if you got it or not. MS. REITMAN:No. MS. GRUETT:Yeah. Okay. Well--but I did talk to--I talked to my board of directors. MS. REITMAN:Yes. MS. GRUETT:And they actually advised me not to make a statement for the Humane Society. If you want to talk to our board president, his name is Matt Jennings. And that was what I was advised to-- MS. REITMAN:Matt Jennings? MS. GRUETT:Uh-huh (affirmative). MS. REITMAN:And he knows the extent of the problems? MS. GRUETT:You know, I don't know what he knows. MS. REITMAN:Yeah. MS. GRUETT:I really--I don't have any idea what he can do to assist you, but you're more than welcome to call him and see what-- MS. REITMAN:Oh, okay. I just wanted to--you know, when you talked about how bad the disease problem was, it just--you know, for both of us it really sort of resonated. It was distemper and what else was it? MS. GRUETT:Just the upper respiratory in the cats. MS. REITMAN:Yeah. And distemper, also. MS. GRUETT:Uh-huh (affirmative). MS. REITMAN:So, we weren't sure, did it take six--did you have to close the kennel, or could you-- MS. GRUETT:Well, it was just--it was--that was when I felt comfortable that I had gotten rid of most--that I had gotten rid of the diseases, you know what I'm saying? MS. REITMAN:Yeah. Yeah. MS. GRUETT:With the disinfecting and reorganizing the rooms and stuff. That was what I felt was comfortable, that I had gotten rid of it, and that nothing else was going to catch it from my environment. You know what I'm saying? MS. REITMAN:Yeah. Because--if it hadn't, could you have continued to operate it? Because it sounds like it was sort of dangerous for the animals and for people. MS. GRUETT:Yeah-- MS. REITMAN:I mean, you know, the animals were--it sounded pretty bad. MS. GRUETT:They were. Quite honestly, I don't--I don't know. You know, if I wouldn't have come down here, I don't know what the employees would have done. I mean, it was obvious that there were sick dogs. So I don't--you know what I'm saying? I have no idea what they would have done if I didn't come down here. MS. REITMAN:Yeah. So, how do you know that she wasn't asking for the spay and neuter? MS. GRUETT:What do you mean, like-- MS. REITMAN:Well, you said somehow animals came back to you, and they weren't spayed/ neutered? MS. GRUETT:Yeah. It was just like--the ones that showed up here were just--they didn't know that they had to. You know what I'm saying? MS. REITMAN:Yeah. MS. GRUETT:Like they thought it was a choice. And I don't know if that was a misunderstanding-- MS. REITMAN:Yeah. MS. GRUETT:--you know what I'm saying? MS. REITMAN:Yeah. MS. GRUETT:Or if they didn't get the information properly. MS. REITMAN:Yeah, yeah. But--okay. So, in terms of the--I'll definitely call Matt Jennings. I just wanted to be clear on what we had talked about, that--I think you had said that there were--out of 35 cats, there were two or three that weren't sick. MS. GRUETT:Uh-huh (affirmative). MS. REITMAN:That's a pretty-- MS. GRUETT:Yeah. MS. REITMAN:And what about the dogs? There were about 50 dogs and puppies and there was distemper? MS. GRUETT:Yeah, in the puppy room. MS. REITMAN:Wow. Did the other dogs catch it? MS. GRUETT:No. No, it was just in the puppy room. MS. REITMAN:In the puppy room. MS. GRUETT:Yeah. MS. REITMAN:Okay. So--all right. Well, how do I get hold of Matt? MS. GRUETT:You can reach him through the Fort Smith Shelter, and I'll give you their phone number. MS. REITMAN:Oh, that would be great. MS. GRUETT:Yeah. Are you ready? MS. REITMAN:Yep. MS. GRUETT:(479)-- MS. REITMAN:Uh-huh (affirmative). MS. GRUETT:783-- MS. REITMAN:783. MS. GRUETT:--4395. MS. REITMAN:--95. And-- MS. GRUETT:He's the president. MS. REITMAN:And he's president of the Sebastian County? MS. GRUETT:Yeah, the board of directors. He's the president of the board of directors. MS. REITMAN:Board of directors. And had he hired her? MS. GRUETT:I don't think so. Because when she worked this shelter, this shelter was not in any way associated with the Fort Smith Shelter--when she opened this one. MS. REITMAN:Okay. MS. GRUETT:You know what I'm saying? MS. REITMAN:Yeah, yeah. So--okay. MS. GRUETT:But that's--you know, they just advised me that if you called, you should talk to him. MS. REITMAN:Yeah, because-- MS. GRUETT:You know, I'm not in the position-- MS. REITMAN:Oh, sure. Oh, listen, nobody wants to get you in trouble, God knows. No, you sound darling. You sound like you really care about the animals. MS. GRUETT:Yeah. MS. REITMAN:So, okay, I will--can I reach him there today, or Monday? MS. GRUETT:You can try today. If you can't reach him today, I would definitely try back Monday. You should be able to get ahold of him surely by Monday, I would think. MS. REITMAN:Okay, great. Okay. Well, thank you. Was it under the county when she had it, or--how was that? MS. GRUETT:I really don't know. MS. REITMAN:You don't know. Okay. MS. GRUETT:I have no idea. MS. REITMAN:Okay, good. Okay. All right, thank you so much, Dana. MS. GRUETT:No problem. MS. REITMAN:All right, bye. MS. GRUETT:Bye. END OF CONVERSATION. ________________________________________________________________ TRANSCRIPT OF TELEPHONE CONVERSATION BETWEEN JUDITH REITMAN AND ANN CLARK September 2002 MS. REITMAN:I'm in Chapel Hill. And I understand that you were responsible for animal control in the shelter in Sebastian County? MS. CLARK:Well, I'm the county animal warden. MS. REITMAN:Oh, okay. So you--we've inherited Laura Walters. And there was a very, you know, alarming meeting at the Board of Commissioners last week concerning conditions there. And I understand that your shelter had to be closed down for about six months to be able to clean it up because of sickness-- MS. CLARK:No, my shelter was never-- MS. REITMAN:Oh, not yours. The one that Dana Gruett is running. MS. CLARK:No, that would be my shelter. And, no, ma'am, that shelter was never shut down. MS. REITMAN:Oh, it was not shut down. MS. CLARK:No. MS. REITMAN:Oh, I misunderstood, then. Okay. So--but I understand that under her direction there seemed to have been problems. MS. CLARK:Under Laura Walters? MS. REITMAN:Yeah. MS. CLARK:All kinds of problems, yeah. MS. REITMAN:Okay. MS. CLARK:'Cause she wouldn't put anything down that was sick, and then everything else kept getting sick. And there was stuff running around from one room to the other room, exposing other stuff, when it should have been isolated. Yeah, there was all kinds of problems. MS. REITMAN:And so basically, there was no disease management? MS. CLARK:No. No, there was no disease management. MS. REITMAN:And what about--I heard something about distemper, and the dogs and puppies having to be put down, and-- MS. CLARK:Well, the problem was, is that nothing was--nothing was isolated properly. And if animals became ill, they were not pulled and put down like they should have been. They were placed on medication when they had bloody stools, and this and that going on. Instead of pulling them and putting some down so that we might save others, they were just trying to save everything, or Laura Walters was. It was not her opinion, apparently, that anything needed to be pulled so that other stuff could live. MS. REITMAN:And what was your opinion? MS. CLARK:My opinion was it needed to be put down. MS. REITMAN:Yeah. MS. CLARK:And the other thing was, is that I had trouble keeping runs open because she didn't want to pull stuff and put things down in the back. And I couldn't do my calls because we spent most of our time arguing about work, you know. "You don't have any runs. All this stuff has been here for three or four months. I'm sorry, but you're going to have to put this stuff down so I can do my calls." MS. REITMAN:Uh-huh (affirmative). MS. CLARK:She didn't want to put anything down. She just wanted to save everything. And, I'm sorry, when you have a shelter that size and you are servicing all of South Sebastian County, that just doesn't fly. MS. REITMAN:So, do you think--well, in terms of saving everything--but, when animals were sick, was she doing a service? I mean, keeping animals--there seemed to be animals that were sick, and they were contaminating other animals. MS. CLARK:Well, yeah, absolutely. Because she wouldn't pull them. Yeah, I mean, I would go in there sometimes and there would be dying or dead animals in runs, and I'm like, "What are you guys doing?" And finally, I just washed my hands of the whole mess, and I said, "You know what? I'm just going to bring my animals in here and I'll put a leash on them and tie them to the door and walk out. If you don't make room--" or, "You're going to do whatever you've got to do, because I've got to do my calls." MS. REITMAN:What about sick animals being adopted out? MS. CLARK:Oh, yes. Oh, yeah, that was going on, too. I work for the Sheriff's Department. I don't have anything to do with the shelter other than I tried to help them if they asked me for help and I wasn't swamped with calls, I would go up there and try and help them. I've gone in there on days and spent hours doing nothing but medicating the entire shelter because everything in there was sick, because things weren't getting pulled and weren't getting put down, and exposing all the other animals. MS. REITMAN:And what about the sanitary conditions there? MS. CLARK:Well, things are better now. MS. REITMAN:Well, yeah, that's what I heard. But what about under Laura Walters? MS. CLARK:Well, for one thing, the shelter was not built properly. And you've got to understand that Laura Walters and I never got along. MS. REITMAN:Uh-huh (affirmative). MS. CLARK:Never. MS. REITMAN:Why is that? MS. CLARK:Because my opinion on how things should be run was totally different than hers. MS. REITMAN:Uh-huh (affirmative). MS. CLARK:You know, and she kept wanting to tell me how to do not only my job, which didn't work for me, because I work with the Sheriff's Department. I'm a deputy sheriff. MS. REITMAN:Uh-huh (affirmative). MS. CLARK:I am not employed by the Humane Society. And my feeling on--for instance, wild animals who are obviously sick, no, I pull out a .22 rifle and put them down in the field. MS. REITMAN:Uh-huh (affirmative). MS. CLARK:And she didn't want me to do that. She wanted me to unnecessarily handle the animals and bring them to the shelter and have them humanely euthanized, when I just couldn't see exposing myself unnecessarily. MS. REITMAN:Uh-huh (affirmative). Well, did she put down animals humanely, or did she just keep them alive and let them die? MS. CLARK:Well, both. Sometimes when things got really bad, she would--I mean, you know, sometimes she wouldn't have a choice but to put them down. She just tried--she adopted out animals that were aggressive, you know, animals that I had to mace or pole or dart to capture. And I would tell her--and she would keep these animals for months, tying up runs, just for months and months. And I'd be like, "What are we doing? These animals are aggressive. We can't even--" We couldn't even get in the run with them for like three or four weeks. "What are you doing?" MS. REITMAN:Wow. So, and animals that were sick, too, adopted out? MS. CLARK:Oh, yeah. MS. REITMAN:Now, what about this whole spay/neuter issue? Because isn't it state law that the animals have to be spayed and neutered? MS. CLARK:If they're adopted from the shelter, yes. MS. REITMAN:And so what was happening in that regard? MS. CLARK:Well, I really don't know a lot about that. MS. REITMAN:Uh-huh (affirmative). MS. CLARK:I don't have anything to do with the paperwork. I do know that since Dana took over, if she has people that live out in the county that have adopted that have failed to turn in their paperwork, she gives those cases to me and I go out and tag the door or call the people or write them a letter and see if I can't get them to comply. Or I go and pick the dog up and impound it, take it away from them, if they're not going to do what they're supposed to do. MS. REITMAN:So, I understand that dogs had been coming back to the shelter that either ran away or whatever, that had been adopted out by Laura Walters and they hadn't been spayed or neutered. MS. CLARK:I really don't know anything about that. MS. REITMAN: You don't know about that one. MS. CLARK:Huh-uh (negative). MS. REITMAN:Okay. So--and what about record-keeping? Was there any record-keeping? Do you know? MS. CLARK:It stunk. MS. REITMAN:It stunk? MS. CLARK:Yeah, it stunk. I mean, they got a computer but then nobody ever put the information in. When Dana took over, the paperwork was just basically stacked in boxes, and nothing was organized. She couldn't find anything. We just had a really hard time. And in fact, Dana is still trying to go through that paperwork, and still trying to get some type of organization going on. I don't really know if that is Laura's fault. All I know is that--the sick animals being adopted out and that kind of thing. And I'd tell her, I'd say, "Man, you can't adopt them animals out, they're sick," and she'd do it anyway. MS. REITMAN:What did she say to you about that? MS. CLARK:Basically, it was none of my business. MS. REITMAN:Oh. And then also the aggressive animals. Adopting out the animals she knew to be aggressive? MS. CLARK:Well, yeah. Basically, "Don't tell me how to run my shelter." "Well, don't tell me how to do my calls." You see, that kind of thing was going on. We were just butting heads. MS. REITMAN:Right. MS. CLARK:We did not see eye to eye on a lot of things. MS. REITMAN:Well, who has some records about the condition of the animals when she left? Did anyone--are there any bills or any documents that show what kind of--what the condition was in terms of the animals when she left? Who would have that? MS. CLARK: You got me. I don't know. I know Marsha Wyatt took over that shelter when she first left, and Marsha did a really good job cleaning it up. Do you know Marsha? MS. REITMAN:No, huh-uh. MS. CLARK:She was the administrator over the Fort Smith Shelter. MS. REITMAN:Oh, right, okay. Yeah. MS. CLARK:I think for the United States Humane Society, doing nothing but teaching, going-- MS. REITMAN:Oh, she's in Washington, then? HSUS in Washington, Marsha? MS. CLARK:Marsha--Wyatt is her last name. Wyatt. MS. REITMAN:Oh, okay. Is she at the Forth Smith Shelter now? MS. CLARK:No. She left there and now, as I understand it, is teaching for the Humane Society. But I think Dana would be able to tell you how to get ahold of her. MS. REITMAN:Oh, okay. All right. Oh, you sound sick. MS. CLARK:Yeah, I've got a cold. MS. REITMAN:Oh, horrible. So, anything else I should know about the problems at the shelter? I mean, if you had known this, do you think that she would have been hired? How she handled-- MS. CLARK:You mean hired up in--wherever she went? North Carolina, or where was it? MS. REITMAN:Yeah. MS. CLARK:Well, I was glad to get rid of her. Y'all can have her. MS. REITMAN:Yeah. Yeah. Well-- MS. CLARK:That was my whole thing. Hey, she's yours. Bye. MS. REITMAN:What about staffing problems? Was there high turnover or-- MS. CLARK:Yeah. MS. REITMAN:Anybody I could talk to who worked with her? MS. CLARK:I'll put it this way. I've been a deputy sheriff for six years. I've been their animal warden for three. And between the time that I accepted this second position from the sheriff in November of '99, I guess it was, till now-- MS. REITMAN:Uh-huh (affirmative). MS. CLARK:--Greenwood is on their eighth animal control officer. And, let's see, six of those were under Laura Walters. Nobody could get along with her. She went through animal control officers like I change my socks. MS. REITMAN:Wow. Because basically when her authority was challenged-- MS. CLARK:Oh, yeah. Nobody got along with her. She wanted things to be her way or it was the highway. She was very--let's see, how can I put this in a delicate manner. MS. REITMAN:You don't have to put it in a delicate manner. MS. CLARK:Okay. Well, "This is how it's going to be. If you don't like it, you can get the hell out of my shelter. And we are not going to put these down because I've said so." MS. REITMAN:Yeah. MS. CLARK:"You will adopt these animals out because I said so." I mean, she's just really overbearing. Nobody could get along with her. That's why--and lie. Oh, my gosh. MS. REITMAN:Oh, really? Tell me more about that. MS. CLARK:Well, was it with her second animal control officer? I believe Sherri was her first, and Aleah was her second one. Something about, okay, we had a human--no, we had an animal exposed to rabies through a sick skunk. Laura Walters took the phone call and told the subject if they could just cut the head off, okay, and take it to the Health Department and have the head tested. Well, then the person cut their finger on the knife-- MS. REITMAN:Oh, my gosh. MS. CLARK:--got blood and stuff in the wound, and they called back to let everybody know how displeased they were that that was how they would handle that situation. "Now, what are we going to do?" And she said, "Oh, well, that wasn't me that told you that. That was Aleah Thompson, which was the Greenwood animal control officer's son [sic]." Well, Aleah and I were pretty good friends, because she had worked for a vet. She told me, she said, "I didn't say that. I'm not the one that said that." And Laura went to the--I believe to the City Council for Greenwood, and stood there and told them that that wasn't her, that was Aleah. And Aleah ended up losing her job over it, and Laura walked away smelling like a rose. MS. REITMAN:Wow. MS. CLARK:And it just--it really--it just really made me mad. The other thing that really made me mad was she spent a lot of time trying to get me fired, and wrote like three-page letters to my chief deputy about--just lies about how I would handle--how I handled this particular case this way, when in fact I had handled it a totally different way. MS. REITMAN:Uh-huh (affirmative). MS. CLARK:An example would be--I had a little poodle down in Hartford that was extremely aggressive in the field. And I ended up having to dart this thing to get it picked up, and it was nasty and matted--and it turned out that it was just about an eight-month-old puppy, but because of the situation and circumstances that it was being lazy, and, yes, it was aggressive in the field. MS. REITMAN:Uh-huh (affirmative). MS. CLARK:Well, we got it cleaned up. Anyway, she put in this letter that I had drug the animal in on a pole and just drug it down the hallway, when in fact it had been in a carrier when I brought it into the shelter. And my chief knew that, because I write a report every time I get out of my truck, which she did not know. And there were like eight or ten different instances where she said it happened this way, and then I had to turn in reports that it had happened this other way-- MS. REITMAN:Oh-- MS. CLARK:And I got called in the chief's office, and she said, "I thought you might like to see this three-page letter." And I got really pissed off. And then I had a cruelty case going on. And she took the animal to the vet and placed the animal on IVs, and three days later I found out because I went in there for something else. And I'm like, "Oh whose authority did you--who brought this animal in? I don't know nothing. This is my cruelty case." And they said, "Well, Laura Walters did." And I said, "Put that animal down." And, you know, I didn't want the animal to suffer any more. And she got mad, and me and her had it out, because I told them, "Put that animal down." MS. REITMAN:So, it sounds like it's less about the animals and more about power and control. MS. CLARK:You name it. It was about power, yes, definitely. And she just wanted a thumb--she wanted to be able to tell me what to do, and I'm sorry, but I'm a deputy sheriff. MS. REITMAN:Yeah. MS. CLARK:Nobody but my superiors tells me how to handle my cases. And if I'm going to get in trouble for something, it's going to be because I made the decision, not because she made the decision for me. MS. REITMAN:Well, what did the board do when it learned this? Was she fired, or not? MS. CLARK:You got me. I don't know. I was just glad to see her go. MS. REITMAN:What about Matt Jennings? He's the board-- MS. CLARK:I don't know Matt Jennings. I know Matt somebody--Carter, I think is his last name. I don't know nothing about that kind of stuff. All I can tell you is Laura Walters and I butted heads because she did not agree with the way that I did my cases, and I didn't like her butting into my business. And when it came right down to it, our prosecutor's office wrote her a letter that said, "You will not interfere in Deputy Clark's cases." MS. REITMAN:Really? MS. CLARK:Yes. MS. REITMAN:Do you have a copy of that letter? MS. CLARK:No. You might get with the prosecutor's office. They probably do. Yeah, that was a done deal. I took all that mess over my report and everything to the prosecutor's office, and they mailed her a letter that said, "You will not interfere in Deputy Clark's cases." Something about--along the lines of "Criminal charges will be brought against you," because-- MS. REITMAN:Oh, my gosh. MS. CLARK:Well, because--I mean think about it. Don't you think it was-- MS. REITMAN:Right. MS. CLARK:--important to know that this animal was going--had taken a nosedive downhill to the point where she had to be on antibiotics and all? Her liver and everything, she's crashed, and here she is trying to keep this animal alive when we're in liver and kidney failure, okay. And the animal is laying there suffering. MS. REITMAN:Well, who was the prosecutor? MS. CLARK:I think--Faye Wagner is the one that did that for me. MS. REITMAN:Wagner? MS. CLARK:Yeah. MS. REITMAN:Where would I reach him? Where is he located? MS. CLARK:Fort Smith. Let's see, that number is 783--hey, Debbie, what's the Fort Smith prosecutor's number? She's looking it up. I don't know what it is. MS. REITMAN:Okay. Well, this is really helpful, because, you know, we're very concerned about a lot of things going on here. And it's not surprising. MS. CLARK:8976. MS. REITMAN:783-8976. MS. CLARK:Okay, now, what did you say? MS. REITMAN:Well, it's very--you know, it's very helpful what you've said. And it doesn't seem so surprising, given what we're finding out. MS. CLARK:So, are you all not happy with Laura Walters? MS. REITMAN:Well, I don't want to say. But what you're saying is not a surprise, and it's not going to be a surprise to the Board of Commissioners, either. MS. CLARK:Oh, she'll be just totally excited that my name came up in it all. How did you get my name? MS. REITMAN:I got it through the county. I wanted to know who was the animal control person. And I heard you were very good and very honest. So I wanted to get, you know, the straight information. MS. CLARK:Well, all I can tell you is we butted heads from day one. MS. REITMAN:Yeah. MS. CLARK:And, you know, the other thing is, just so you'll understand, I get along with Dana and Angela. I get along with Marsha Wyatt. I get along with everybody else, because we're all on the same page. MS. REITMAN:Uh-huh, uh-huh (affirmative). MS. CLARK:We're all here to save what animals we can save, to put the rest down, keep room open so we can all do our calls, medicate guys that are adoptable. MS. REITMAN:Uh-huh (affirmative), yeah. MS. CLARK:You know, rather than trying to save everything, we pick out the ones that we feel are adoptable, and concentrate our efforts on those animals. MS. REITMAN:Uh-huh (affirmative). MS. CLARK:And everybody else gets put down. MS. REITMAN:Yeah. MS. CLARK:Some have to die so that others may live. That's just the way it is. MS. REITMAN:Yeah. Has your adoption rate or the-- MS. CLARK:Well, I've got to tell you--let me just tell you that initially when Laura first left, we had such a bad reputation in Greenwood, we didn't have one or two visitors a week, if we had that. Nobody came to our shelter. MS. REITMAN:Wow. MS. CLARK:Because we had such a bad reputation. And, you know, that was citizens calling me and telling me things like that, or people that I would meet out in the field that would say, "Yeah, hey, you know what, you're not taking these animals--" you know, things that I'm picking up-- "--you're not taking these to the Greenwood Shelter, are you? I've been there, and, you know, I've seen some dying things in there," and on and on. So, "You know what? The person who ran that shelter is now gone. If you'll just give us another chance, I think you'll see that the shelter has been really cleaned up." It took us a long time to get over that. MS. REITMAN:Wow. MS. CLARK:Just in the last three months or so, really, had our adoption rate come up, and people are coming back out to the shelter again. And, I mean, we really--it really hurt. It devastated our shelter, because of the conditions, and people adopting things out that were sick, and things like that. And things dying once they were adopted, and--it was a nightmare. And I really thought we were going to have to close the shelter down and I was going to strictly have to work out of the Fort Smith Shelter. It got that bad. But we're slowly--we are slowly recovering. Initially, most of the money that actually kept us afloat was either paid from my--from me, working municipalities and continuing to bring animals to the shelter. And either the county or an individual or the municipalities that I worked for, that I serviced, were paying that shelter fee. That's really the only thing that kept that shelter alive, is because I kept taking those animals out there. And people wanting to have their own animals put down, I'd go and get them and collect twenty-five dollars ($25.00) and give it to the shelter as a use fee, just--I mean, I would dig every penny I could just to try and keep that shelter afloat. And personally, I didn't want to go to Fort Smith, didn't have time to go to Fort Smith every day. MS. REITMAN:Uh-huh (affirmative). MS. CLARK:So, it was touch and go. And it was--I really thought it was going to not make it for a while. But we've made a little bit of a comeback, and our adoptions are up and people are starting to come to the shelter again. But it took a long time for that shelter to recover. And I didn't know that it was going to. MS. REITMAN:Wow. MS. CLARK:That's how bad our reputation was. MS. REITMAN:Wow. MS. CLARK:You couldn't drag people in there. So, it was pretty bad for a while. But the girls that are out there now, they do a wonderful job cleaning. They are meticulous about it. And they are very meticulous about everything that I bring in, everything that's brought to the shelter-- MS. REITMAN:Uh-huh, uh-huh (affirmative). MS. CLARK:--we go over it, and now I have a say-so with decisions. MS. REITMAN:What about any photos taken when she was there? Any documentation at all in terms of the condition of sickness? MS. CLARK:You know what? I really thought about it. But I was so aggravated at the time-- MS. REITMAN:Yeah. MS. CLARK:--that, you know, my whole thing was I didn't go to the shelter unless I had to. MS. REITMAN:Who did she report to? MS. CLARK:She didn't report to nobody. That was the problem. See, there was supposed to be a board, but she had that board--'cause she went in there and made sure--dictate and make sure everything on the board meeting nights, when they were going to meet there that afternoon, that everything was clean. MS. REITMAN:Uh-huh (affirmative). MS. CLARK:And I guess--I don't really have a lot of knowledge about that. I just know that apparently she had some folks pretty snowed. There were some--and I know Helene Carter was on the Laura Walters bandwagon. She was a big supporter of Laura's, and me and Helene didn't get along either, because she had the same philosophy, that everything could be saved. And, no, it can't. I'm sorry. Not if you want to make money and keep your shelter afloat. You've got to put stuff down, you've got to-- MS. REITMAN:Especially sick animals. MS. CLARK:Well, you've got to keep stuff that's highly adoptable-- MS. REITMAN:Yes. MS. CLARK:--you know. And the other thing--another thing was that Laura Walters said that everything that I brought in that I felt like had to be put down. Well, when you consider that I'm the county animal warden, and Corm Court says that I deal with the sick, the injured and the aggressive-- MS. REITMAN:Uh-huh, uh-huh (affirmative). MS. CLARK:--yeah. You betcha. Ninety (90) percent of everything I bring in to that shelter is strictly criteria, and, yeah, they are going to have to be put down. MS. REITMAN:Uh-huh (affirmative). MS. CLARK:That's the way it is. MS. REITMAN:Were there animals that came in that were lost and their owners reclaimed them, or were efforts made to do that? MS. CLARK:Yeah. I'd have to say yeah, probably. Yeah. I mean, you've got to understand that as county animal warden, I probably pick up one in 70 that have some type of identification. MS. REITMAN:Especially where you are, yeah. MS. CLARK:You know, in my municipalities, I would say if I pick up six animals in the municipality, maybe one might get reclaimed. I just don't really have--I work a lot of lower class, low income municipalities. MS. REITMAN:Well, I've been to Arkansas, so I know, yeah. MS. CLARK:You know, those people just don't have a lot of money to come bail their dogs out of jail. Nor do they have the education to know how to properly care for animals, you know. MS. REITMAN:Uh-huh (affirmative). MS. CLARK:A lot of times I impound animals from low income people because they can't afford to take care of them, and I don't want them to have animals. MS. REITMAN:Now, let me ask you this. I'm going to call--I'm just wondering whether it would be possible for you to ask them to fax you the letter, since it concerned you. They may not send me that letter, the prosecutor's letter. MS. CLARK:I don't even know that they still have a copy of it. You know what, let me--MS. REITMAN:I bet you they would. It's only been a year, or two years. MS. CLARK:I don't know though. Let me see. Let me just make sure that I don't have a copy of it. MS. REITMAN:Yeah. Because that's a very strong document. MS. CLARK:Yeah. Yeah, [inaudible]. MS. REITMAN:Yeah. MS. CLARK:I was pretty hot that day, when I went to the chief's office and started slamming papers on his desk and raising hell. MS. REITMAN:Wow. MS. CLARK:"Okay, Ann, okay. I see that you're angry." "Yeah, you see that, huh?" MS. REITMAN:Yeah, yeah. MS. CLARK:It's not in here. I think it is--let's see. I thought I had a copy of that silly thing at one time, but I think I cleaned out my notebook. When she was gone, I just figured I didn't need it. MS. REITMAN:Yeah. What do you think is the best way to get a copy? I don't want them to turn me down. MS. CLARK:Oh, I guess I can make a phone call. I don't really know for sure--I think it was Wagner, but I don't know for sure. They may have-- MS. REITMAN:Can I give you my number? MS. CLARK:Just a second here. MS. REITMAN:And it's phone and fax both, so if you want to fax it to me, that would be great. MS. CLARK:Let me get my notebook out here. So, you work with that place up in North Carolina? Is that where you're located? MS. REITMAN:Yeah. No, I'm a journalist, and I was one of the people who testified at the Board of Commissioners about the situation at the shelter. And we had a veterinarian testify. We had five young women who worked at the shelter come forward. And we had an attorney. MS. CLARK:Did she meet up there? MS. REITMAN:Yeah. MS. CLARK:That's excellent. I'm sorry. MS. REITMAN:Yeah, but it's--you know, we're up against a lot. There's a lot of-- MS. CLARK:So things didn't get better, huh? Still things screwed up-- MS. REITMAN:Well, it's all--there are a lot of questionable things going on here, apparently. MS. CLARK:Yeah, well, I'm not surprised. MS. REITMAN:We'll have to bring you up here to give testimony. MS. CLARK:Oh, I don't think so. MS. REITMAN:You don't think so? MS. CLARK:No. No, you'd better not send me no subpoena. MS. REITMAN:No, no, no, no. MS. CLARK:I don't want no part of that, girl. [Inaudible] bye. What's your name? MS. REITMAN:It's Jude, J-u-d-e, Reitman, R-e-i-t-m-a-n. MS. CLARK:They were going from the isolation room--she'd just put them on the floor and just let them run into the adoption room, everywhere else, exposing everything else. I said, "What are you guys doing up here?" "Okay, I wash my hands of it." MS. REITMAN:Yeah. MS. CLARK:I stopped helping them. How 'bout that? MS. REITMAN:Yeah. MS. CLARK:I was going to clean and stuff and trying to help them, but when all that mess started happening, I just couldn't--couldn't get through, get my message across, I just--I quit helping them. MS. REITMAN:Well, it must have been frustrating, and hard, hard to do--hard not to do. MS. CLARK:Yeah. Because I help the girls now, any way I can. MS. REITMAN:Yeah. MS. CLARK:But we're all on the same page. MS. REITMAN:Thank you, Ann, so much. MS. CLARK:Okay, well, I'll see if I can't-- MS. REITMAN:That would be great. That would be so helpful. Because there's going to be another private meeting, and we want to, you know, present as much as possible. MS. CLARK:Uh-huh (affirmative). What the problems were that I saw-- MS. REITMAN:Yeah, yeah. MS. CLARK:I don't know. I mean, I guess Faye has got to go by whatever-- MS. REITMAN:Yeah. MS. CLARK:--whoever is telling her. No, I don't have access to their records. MS. REITMAN:Yeah. END OF CONVERSATION